love it Jaime--- We'll close the commenting with this...

The blog was posed as a question to get us all thinking--- not some sort of declaration--- but here's what ive discovered over the past couple of days in researching the matter... rather than passing judgement on folks:

The traditional Reformed position is that God ordained that sin would enter the world through the voluntary choice of moral creatures.
So while the preferable word is 'ordained', I think it’s a lesson in uncharitable reading to condemn someone on the basis of the word “planned.”
But why seek understanding, when condemnation is so much easier?

And that's all i have to say about that---

Two scriptures.

"For from him and through him and to him are all things." Romans 11:36

"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." Colossians 1:16

Why does everyone feel like they can voice their opinion about God's plan, yet only 4/24 comments so far have used any Scripture reference?

Are we so arrogant as to think that we can speak of the Holy God, who created heaven and Earth, and not need to use His revealed Word when speaking of Him or His will?

Here's some scripture for all the people at NewSpring:

Proverbs 14:7
Stay away from a foolish man, for you will not find knowledge on his lips.

Just a little clarificatrion, like most of the Seeker Sensitive, Purpose Driven, AvantGuarde pastors, I ripped that verse out of context just to make my own point.

I'm completely confused as to what your "own point" was??? Is it that we are to use Scripture in context....then you're right. However, that was not the point. The point was that we are sinfully arrogant if we believe we can refer to the Holy God without consulting His Holy Word. If you're "point" is that we should not do so, that is pure sinful ignorance.

Sorry for the confusion. I get so frustrated reading blogs where the pastors are trying so hard to come up with something new and fresh. We have 2000 years of Christian orthodoxy, if you think you've come up with something new, you probably haven't.

I do agree that it is very sad for all of these blog post which fail to consult the Word of God. My point was we should use Scripture IN CONTEXT to make any point. My second post was to say that too often Seeker Sensitive, Purpose Driven pastors rip scripture out of context to make all sorts of crazy claims. As I read my second post now it does seem confusing. Sorry about that.

As someone on the outside of NewSpring, it seems like foolishness abounds there and it would be good for people to take note of Proverbs 14:7. My prayer would be that the NewSpring leadership repents, sets aside their foolish ways and "contends for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints" Jude 1:3

yeah, it happens...so are you now arguing that we should not use Scripture in our points and arguments? That's preposterous. Again, that is pure arrogance to believe that you know ANY truth outside of God and His Word.

Blasphemy. You are trying to be relevant instead of letting our Holy God and His word do the talking. God neither created sin nor sinners; that is the whole reason Adam (and we) are separated from God. He can't be around sin. If you casually suggest otherwise, you are misleading people into believing that they can't help their sin (God made me this way), so they don't need a savior. Adding the cross at the end of your thoughts doesn't dismiss the seeds of doubt you planted.

God is sovereign enough to allow freewill and to plan for its consequences. Omniscience is not the same as pre-planning. Knowledge of good and evil (don't all actions have opposites?) is not creating it.

amytwo,
Quite the contrary. If people can help their sin, if sin is simply an action that we are in control of, if every addiction is perfectly under the control of our free will, then that means we can use our free will to fix our sin problem. If our free will can fix our problem THEN there is no need for a savior.

I don't think anyone is saying that man is not responsible for his sin. All we're saying is that God is so much bigger and more powerful. If our free will can go against God's ultimate will, then God is not sovereign and if God is not sovereign then he cannot by nature be God.

Why plant an idea in the mind of unbelievers or new Christians that the best theologians have been debating for hundreds of years? The job of the church is to preach Christ crucified. God did not, could not create sin. A pastor posing these types of questions is doing it to gratify his intellect, not to save sinners. Wake up my friend.

Agree....Genesis 2:17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." God created all things sin included. If God didn't create sin then why did he create the tree of Good & Evil. Yes man squired himself and was disobedient of God's command. God spoke to man, the Devil lied to man and man disobeyed God.

God is soveriegn, and has a plan for all of our lives...we do not surprise him with sin...just does not happen. We cannot pull a fast one on God.

God is absolutely sovereign and knew before He ever created Adam or Lucifer for that matter, that sin would be rampant; that man would want to go his own way. Why else would He plan for our salvation before the foundation of the world?

To me, saying that God plans sin is saying that God plans evil and darkness and untruth and non love, etc. which are all the things God is not. He allows sin, which comes from bad choices of men, or just the fallenness of the world. However, God can and does use all sorts of situations - good and bad - to draw people to Himself.

God decreed sickness and death and physical, emotional and relational hardship after man chose to walk away from God by choosing what looked right in his own eyes. God created perfection, man screwed it up but God will make it all perfect again in the end.

Disagree...sin is man's plan. God's plan is to redeem man from sin.

So did God develop His plan after man decided to sin? God REACTED to man?

Completely agree. Either God is sovereign or not. It's clear cut. There's no in between. There are MANY arguments for sin being part of God's plan, many of which have already been mentioned, so there is no use and restating them.

However, In Ephesians 1:4 how could God have chosen us in Christ before the foundations of the world if sin, and redemption because of sin, were not part of his plan?

Also seen in Revelation 13:8. All who's names weren't written in the book of the life of the Lamb worshiped the beast, implying that some WERE written in the book.

As Brad has already said, if sin is not part of God's plan then God is reactionary, which is COMPLETELY unbiblical! Either you believe in a sovereign God, or a God's whose sovereignty is dependent upon the wills and actions of His creation!

Sin is not a part of God's plan. He created the Garden of Eden as a perfect
place. Man and woman chose to sin. God is Sovereign. BLESSED BE THE NAME
OF THE LORD.

jvboxer1,
So, God did not have a plan for sin, yet God is also sovereign? How can God be sovereign if He isn't in control? If God is shocked, How is he all-knowing.

this has a slight Arminian vs. Calvinist feel to it... I'll bounce around that though and just say my opinion.

God is ever-present... he exists in all time periods, he doesn't have to fast forward or rewind to get to a time period, he IS the entire timeline. In the beginning (ie. Genesis) what God created was "good" and what God created between Adam and Eve was "very good." Therefore since we know that sin is BAD, I feel confident (in my own understanding) that sin was not part of God's original plan, yet that since He is omnipresent and all-knowing, He would have known that "the curse" would have ensued.

God never wants His elect to sin (darn just gave away my team colors!) He wants nothing but good for us. Yet he knows that we all sin and all fall short of His glory, but He loves us in spite of that sin.

so my answer is a very definitive yes/no.

Could we know Mercy without Sin???
Could we know Forgiveness without Sin???
Could we know Unconditional Love without Sin???
Could we know Justice without Sin???
Could we know that God is an AVENGER without Sin???
Could we perceive the GLORY OF GOD WITHOUT SIN???
Couuld we know the POWER of JESUS and the CROSS WITHOUT SIN???

So... SIN didnt sneak up on GOD... HE HAD PLANNED IT ALL ALONG... HE IS SOVEREIGN RIGHT????!!!??

I would say that it was in His plans, because if it wasn't, we wouldn't have a free will and be able to choose Him like He chose us. I mean, where is the love if we can't make the decision to love someone? when we sinned, it gave God a greater chance to show His love for us, and it gave us a greater chance to love Him. It gave us a choice, so that we may be like Him, in His image, seeing both good and evil. The only differences between us is that He hasn't sinned and will never because He is always the same God and always will be and always have been, but us on the other hand, sinned, and could not save ourselves, but God could save us and He did through His son Jesus coming to earth and leading a perfect life and the being crucified, taking our sins with Him, spending three nights in torment to leave our sins there, and then rising again to show that we have been forgiven and that we are loved, that is who are God is! so yes, I believe full heartedly that sin was in His plan for us so we may choose Him and that we may always need Him yesterday, today, and tomorrow forever.

Disagree. Sin was never part of God's plan. Adam and Eve (and the rest of us) were created to live in perfect communion with the Father. But God gave us free will, and with it, we choose sin.

God is still perfect though, and He knows how to leverage our sin for His plan.

So God is a reactionary God of leverage rather than a sovereign God of perfection????

So, being sovereign, I'll agree that God planned FOR my sin. That is, He knew it would happen and what would happen as a result. But does that mean that He plans for me TO sin? Is me sinning His plan? I assume God's plan is the same thing as God's will, right? Is me sinning His will? That's where I'm feeling the friction.

On one hand, I would say yes...but this is a very complex issue...consider the following example:

Do we agree it was God's WILL for Jesus to come to Earth and die? (Acts 2:23)

If so, how was this to happen? It was to happen by men killing him right...or sinning? So was not the by-product of God's will of Jesus' death and being delivered up the necessary sinning for that to take place?

That is just one example...

Read Piper's "Spectacular Sins." He treats this subject excellently...better than I could ever imagine accomplishing.

so that would make God reactionary wouldnt it...???? meaning that Sin surprised HIM????

If redemption from sin is part of God's plan, it seems logical that sin itself would be part of God's plan. How else, other than through our sin, can God show His love through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross?

agree.

agree to an extent. God has a master plan for us, but He knows we'll sin even before we do it. He uses any circumstance for His glory no matter what, but i don't believe He plans for us to sin, He just uses the times we do to show us where to go from there and draw us closer to Him and all He has planned for us.

I agree, bc he has used sin to make me come closer to him like it says in Ecclesiastes 4:13 that "I believe everything God does endures forever;nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him." saying, that God does things to us that will draw us to him and then praise him for showing us his light.

Is that the extent of the entry?
I dunno if sin itself is a part of the plan... free will is, which means we are free to sin if we want to. So... agree?

God is the author over sin, not the author of sin.